User talk:Cliff Burton

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Don't wanna sound rude, but ...
#I will only answer to signed posts. It's easy to sign.
#I will delete unsigned or improperly signed (date or name missing) questions on my usertalkpage.
#I won't answer questions's which easily can be googled!

My rants

Please use the talk section if you must answer to this. But I don't intend to get answers to these statements!

A word to the public

Today I had to deal with what I call politics.. and I don't like it, I have better to do, my skills should be used for the things only I can provide, aside the fact that I have to admit that I am RL sick which exactly came from such dealings. I don't want to hear any apologies about that, as I mentioned it so it is clear that I, like you all, am a human being with very real RL challenges. Bringing RP related discussions and opinions into an encyclopedic system isn't helping me or the project I intended (with free neutral information for all) at all. There are people (including me) out there who don't need or want to know that kind of information which seems to be only important for few. I decided that I will use the power that I have to decide what is right. Hopefully in the thought of the most. As the ones involved in this discussions are reading this page, I won't (for now) state what I also decided to settle this on another place. But there will be Guidelines or a Policy for what I decided.

User/Character/Group (and their Talk) Pages

Each user owns his characters page (respective a group owns their group page), but other users can open discussion on the respective talk pages for things which are critical. If the owner wants to delete facts, (s)he is allowed to do so. Reality is relative. Everybody lives in her/his own reality bubble. So.. No Discussion, no trouble (for me, I hope). If historical pages will cluttered up with critcal opinions without citing the source, it will be deleted. Avoid the use of weasel words.

See Specific Case Editing Guidelines for the full set of rules! Effective Immediately. Period.

--Cliff Burton Marco 02:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

With a little help of my friends - A letter to the public pt.II

I don't want to talk to a lawyer to make policies for every aspect of this encyclopedic project. And I don't want you to fight over things I decided, decissions mainly made to make it easy for you helping to fill this place without you fighting. If you fight, this means I decided something wrong. And I don't want that either. Most of the time I am glad someone does something not perfect, better than I have to do it myself perfectly (which I sometimes don't know what that means before I try) and it might never happen because of the lack of time or energy. I am perfectionist, and very visual, though, which means that I often have specific ideas how I want things to be done. I have to learn, too. I remember the first year, the growing went at slow pace. I have to thank you all for helping! You know each other from playing characters, that might not always be easy to drop that off when thinking about posting information on this wiki without stepping on each others feet. But remember that behind this characters are very real people with very real challenges in life. It's not your character who edits the posts. It's you! And here I thank you for understanding! --Marco aka. Cliff Burton Marco 15:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Rant of the week

Sysops & Article Protection

This is about the ongoing behaviour of this wikis Sysops and the protection of pages. Since I had a reason to choose the wiki software for that project, what sense would it make to protect more and more pages? It's a challenge for you to write the pages in a way most people agree with. This prevents stories getting told in just the way the most busy authors write (or those who came first). Those who do not agree have to get informed and discussed with. Those who vandalize pages (repeatedly editing aka. edit warring; see below) will be warned and blocked out of the wiki... BY ME. But the pages on this book will never be closed (There will be exceptions of course). If we did, how could it get improved? No offense, but no... I am overruling the discussions about that topic. Also, you admins/sysops can't just protect pages on your own will which are not within your userspace. That's not how this works. --Cliff Burton Marco 20:45, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussions

I am really thinking how I have to adjust my expectations on you people (humans! HUMANS!) so that I am not disappointed (on myself). You keep on fighting. Wow. I am not using names... but some of you really need to think that if you keep disrespecting yourselves... that you are disrespecting my wish of peace on that project. I don't care about how much support you gave, or in what way you did when you are behaving like this. I am trying not to boss (big cheesing) around, because I don't really want that. But it seems to be needed. Is that really too much to ask for to stay polite? Re-thinking your emotions before answering on a emotional post, might help. If you get emotional and attacking (fighting back) you do exactly the same mistake as the one you are trying to answer to. And.. being an sysop here, means only that I trusted you being able to act in my best intentions. If I can't get you to understand that, and you aren't able to help me in this way... (I am not meaning to threat here, but I think you catch my point). I am trying to be polite. I am making a lot of mistakes, too. I know that. But I am always meaning good, with my deepest respect and gratitude. See, I am trying not to give any of you the feeling that I have more power on the wiki than you, which I of course have. I am trying to help you, helping me. But I am also helping you, helping yourself. I am not so much interested in the information itself. I am more interested to manage this project somehow, so you finally have something you all like and have a use for. Not just one clan or a few clans you might think I am sympathizing with (which I do not). And I try to respect you people, I don't relate to your characters when communication in this wiki project. Because I talk with you people. Those who press the "Save page"-Button. Fangs! --Cliff Burton Marco 20:45, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The small difference between editing and edit warring

Or.. Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Editing A Wiki Article, But Were Afraid to Ask

This, of course, applies to articles which do not belong to someone. Information about ownership of articles found here. I spent my time writing it for you, please spent yours to read it and never ask me again about that topic :).

  1. As long as you agree with an article, you can go ahead and just add information to it. That easy. Yay!
  2. If you find a typo or can format it so it looks better, you can do that too. You do not have to ask everyone. Coolio!
  3. If you aren't quite sure or feel unsafe because the wiki code stuff intimidates you, you ask the editor or one of those before (If you use the articles history you can find out exactly who did that particular change. You can do that either on the articles discussion page, which you will find that tab on top of the article where it says discussion, or on the authors userpage discussion page. Most users watch their own user page and the article pages they have edited.)
  4. This also applies, of course, if you find that you have a different opinion on something. But then you must discuss it. You can (or should I say must?) not just go ahead and start an edit war.

Ask yourself, will this lead to an end an outside reader (just think of me) will be pleased? That is not problem solving, it is wasting everyones energy which, speaking for myself, I lack off and can't believe some still do over so little things. Time on earth is precious and some people out there are lucky they have a life not have to think of most of the time.
Come on... Live a life worth remembering.
Fangs for your time,
Cliff Burton Marco 15:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Ask cliff

Encyclopedia vs. Facebook

(copied from Moirai's talk page)

Just a reminder. Not everyone is RP this or RP enough or interested to know everything or does need to know everything to have fun or do the quests. I played the game without doing the quests for the first maybe 2 years. I thought it would be impossible to reach 40K BP to reach the highest rank (then). Now I'd love to see more tasks in the game. Maybe we should make a game suggestions page. :) But then again, who reads it?
"There are many..." is exactly like "Some people say...". This is a weasel word example.
I am wondering about the quality, style and consistency. Seriously, what do you guys want? Do you want a encyclopedia or do you want each another facebookpages? --Cliff Burton Marco 13:29, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I've moved this here because I think this is an important topic for discusssion. The direction of this wiki will affect how we do things and ultimately decide what anyone uses this wiki for. Also, I want to stress that what I say in this is my own personal vision and will probably not match the vision of anyone reading this, at least not exactly, so I want it understood that I'm only talking about my personal perspective, and I hope that others will add their unique perspectives to this discussion as well, and together, somewhere in the middle, we will all be 90% happy, lol.
  1. I personally have a strong slant toward information. Good information, bad information, ALL information. I want to know all about the Game Mechanics, I want to know all about the little nooks and crannies of the city. I want to know it all. I think the wiki should have a strong encyclopedic slant. I don't think we are looking for a dry boring encyclopedia though. I think a sprinkle or two of artistic license is a very good thing. So a few weasle words here and there don't hurt. The telling of individual vampire stories in a favorable light doesn't hurt either. As long as what is told is basically the truth, I have no problem with it. As long as the info isn't shameless self-promotion, outright lies, or propaganda, I'll probably like it.
  2. I think the wiki should be more like an encyclopedia, but a fun one, with interesting stories, colorful descriptions, being a little fast and loose with wording is ok with me so long as the overall message is basically true. If the character pages are a little face-bookish, I'm even ok with that. I can tolerate that because it's obvious to me that's what most people seem to want, and I'm all about group satisfaction. History and Glossery items should be more accurate, but still fun to read.
  3. Again, this is all just my personal opinion, and I hope to hear from others too, because this subject *IS* very important, as it will shape the future of this wiki. --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 19:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
  1. About the weasel words... If you avoid them, the stories will have a lack of personality, right, but it won't get that much fights, that already has been. I mean, you can't fight over facts that are cited. I don't want to waste my time for that. I might have less time in the future. Then this needs to work out.
  2. I have to remind all who read this, this project isn't just another forum. It has the purpose of an encyclopedia. I know there were already attempts by others to build a wiki about this, which weren't exactly successful. And for the RP there are dozends (!) of forums out there. This is meant as a neutral place, not just one clan. If this is successful, then because I am neutral and you accepting it. I add a little of tech magic and directing in the background... the big chunk of work is done by you. I am just the Big Cheese stinking in the background, not taking myself too seriously. You shouldn't either.
  3. @Arch: You add a lot of information, which might (and does) let others think you want to change the direction of this wiki. Not everyone is your opinion. Again, this is no rant against you. I am thinking a lot about the direction and talk to people. I will have to decide which direction this is going to go. Maybe dividing character/group pages is a solution. A facts part OOC (what a user sees if watching the profile in "the dark allyway"), which is undisputable, and a IC part. @All you others out there: You can't complain if the direction of this wiki seems to have gone in a direction you might not like. It's up to you to discuss with and change it. Just complaining (especially via mail or Y!M) is not creative. Post your opinion on the site. We will laugh together and then I will tell you why this can't be ;) ... seriously... Others might agree with you. --Cliff Burton Marco 19:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
...or better yet, contribute! There's no better way to affect the wiki than to participate! :) --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 19:42, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok How I see this wiki -- I see the vampire character pages as written as autobiographies or even biographies, in that the truth is placed with possibly some bias from the player of the character but not written with so much bias and non neutral works to be more fiction than truth. Basically the vampire pages are the own personal works of the player behind the character with imput from the city at large to help make the vampire pages concur with city history in a biographical form. Some of the information can be in rp form as long as it is true.
Vampire pages where the character has been sold -- the previous owners name - as known in the game- should be put in paranthesis- to denote what actions that character did with which owner to help stop the hate that some have over a characters actions based on one owner, and only if the change in ownership is provable.
The rest of the pages -- lexicon, vocab pages, lair pages, clan pages -- should be factual in an encyclopedia way. Simple, understandable, truthful.
Clan pages should be Low on rp, facts only. Leaders, founders, time in city and so forth.
User pages -- are truthful and with whatever true information the player wishs all to know about themselves. That they feel safe to share.
I apologize if that was too long but there is my take on how this wiki should be. :) --TejasTalk 19:15, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The wiki pages on Hellion's Alehouse will be factual, as they have always been. If you change the facts of the entry then please give yourself credit as Researcher <your name>. If you for one minute think that your change will cause any problems then post it on the talk page first and then all of the wiki editors can discuss it and agree on it first. --Vuk 13:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


City building

Does this wiki own a city square? --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 17:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Short answer: No. --Cliff Burton Marco 18:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
"No" would have been an even shorter answer, lol. I heard, apparently from an unreliable source whom I will later smack, that we had one. After frustrating myself looking for it, or a at least a reference to it, I decided to actually ask. I should have done it in the first place because now I feel like an idiot. :) --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 02:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I didn't wanted it to sound rude :)
And the latter, I do not get what you are trying to say. There is an unreliable source, who likes to get smacked, and there might have been or is a wiki place in the city? *verwirrt* --Cliff Burton Marco 04:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
My humble apologies, the problem is with my dry sense of humor, sometimes it is too subtle. You were not rude. I felt like an idiot because I had spent so much time looking for something that didn't exist, and not asking you sooner. I felt like smacking the person who gave me the bad information. I was feeling frustrated and was trying to cover it with humor. Ich hoffe, dass Sie mehr verwirrt werden nicht. :) --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 18:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
The last sentence sounded a bit yoda-ish, but offended you not must be! Your german is very good, still. And very polite. Honestly, I thought about how cool it would be to name a pub "The Orion" or to rename the pub where cliff is hanging around the most time, "The Moon" into "The Moon and Orion" (as it would be a shame to erase such a cool name as "The Moon" from the map). "Orion" is an instrumental song which the original Cliff Burton was famous for playing on bass. It was his funeral song in 1986. But why The Moon? The Moon is just my favourite place on the map, so far... --Cliff Burton Marco 04:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you! I was a little worried about that one. Someday I will speak German as well as you speak English! Yes, let's get a tavern or something, and wasn't "The Moon Over Orion" a song from the original StarTrek series? I'll have to look that one up, but I think it was. (I'm a big StarTrek fan) What does it cost for a Tavern anyway? Can we have it serve special drinks? --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 17:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
PS. Song was "Moon Over Rigel VII" (Home of the green Orion slave women) --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 17:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I am a big Trekkie myself. But it seems that you top me by far. And of course I know these Orion gals. Also, for a music geek that I am, good to know about that song. That would be an awesome (no, AWESOME) name for a pub, though it misses the reference to cliffburton. "The Moon Over Orion" sounds like a good compromise if one had to be made. About the tavern and what to do, cost, or possibility... I don't have a clue. If there are costs involved, in my current monetary situation (no pity, not asking for anything) I rather pay to keep my services up, than paying for something that would just be nice to have. But thanks for even thinking about something like that. And sometimes I am wondering if you all are just too lazy (you bastards) or too polite (you good people). :) --Cliff Burton Marco 22:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
To change a name of a pub cost 50.00 USD's ... also it cant be a pub that has already been renamed... it has to have the original name that RB gave it many moons ago lol - also the name cannot reference any vampire, so as cool as it would be to have Cliff Burton's Moon and Orion... RB just wouldnt go for it --Miranda Dawn 01:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Addition to my last words, I was going to say, but was too tired to check my words:
And sometimes I am wondering if you all are just too lazy (you bastards) or too polite (you good people) to correct my english when it doesn't make any sense. :) --Cliff Burton Marco 15:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The sad fact is that your English is better than most native speakers. Because I'm a polyglot, and understand the value of the input, I try to fine tune your English when I see need, but in all seriousness I have heard congressmen and read newspapers with glaring errors much more serious than anything I've ever seen from you. Remember that when I first read your writings, I thought you were a native speaker from your use of English. --Archangel Talk * Welcome * Support 21:45, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Sharon, for explaining in detail. I took the liberty and put that info into the article pub. About the name, I wouldn't be eager to have cliffburton as part of a pubs name. ""The Orion"", "The Moon Over Orion", "The Moon and Orion", "The Moon Over Rigel VII" are just a few examples what are names that I would choose from.
Another cool thing would be, if I had the code in my hands, I would make it serve True Blood :P --Cliff Burton Marco 15:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Spam

You should try this HERE. --Lord Galamushidon't talk to me 16:29, 27 January 2011 (CET)

Spamming Pages

Do we really need individual pages for EACH bank or pub? We can't just make one page and post the locations on it? --Bry talkvamp 23:37, 10 February 2011 (CET)

Depends what do you mean with we. :) It is a wiki, if someone makes the afford to hack them in.. sure why not. It is valid information. Why are you asking? --Cliff Burton Marco 23:50, 10 February 2011 (CET)
I mean 'we' as in the site; the Wiki. While I agree it's valid information, I see no valid reason to have them on separate pages when all that's on the page is that the "square" was originally created by †RavenBlack and that it shares the coin with the other banks. Considering all the squares are created by †RavenBlack; and the original bank page already states you can withdraw your coin/items at any bank, I think it's simply redundant. --Bry talkvamp 00:54, 11 February 2011 (CET)
So you think you are not going to use these pages in the future? Just curious. ;) --Cliff Burton Marco 01:13, 11 February 2011 (CET)
When new information is added to a page, no matter what page it is, I'll go to it to see what was written. But; as it stands, no. Also, I just noticed Sam (†Lord Galamushi) already has a page with all the bank locations. --Bry talkvamp 01:29, 11 February 2011 (CET)
I see. Yes, he asked me if he could have sandboxes and other pages in his userspace. Feel free to you use your own, text takes almost no space. If you need help, go ahead and ask me... or maybe Sam, if I am not available, as he already knows how. Btw. do you have unused images on the wikiserver? Today I learned that over 200 files are stored and unused by even a single wikiarticle. I calculated about 20Mb of wasted webspace. You might have read it already, sorry to bother you then. Well, if not, I announced that I will erase them sooner or later. But rather sooner. Money's tight. Dire straits. ;) So be sure to check for your files. Can't restore them on a linux server once they are erased. Fangs and have fun, pal. --Cliff Burton Marco 02:11, 11 February 2011 (CET)
I have to agree with Bry this is getting a little out of hand. I think that owned pubs should have a page as they are like owning a building and can have a history but banks do not need their own pages when there is a list of them and regular pubs don't really need it either as they are listed with locations. Also it's the same with the streets these things are on having their own page. That makes even less sense to me. I'd rather there just was a link back to a map if that's the case. A page to Willow & 14th has no purpose but to re-link back to the building that's there making a circle of absolute nothingness. Over-linking perhaps? Like Bry said it's redundant without purpose. --LISA Talk|Character 04:37, 11 February 2011 (CET)
I admit too I agree with Bry and Lisa… you already have a page called “Bank”, on that page is a screenshot of a bank with bank info on it. Though, there could be a category marked “Bank Locations” on that Bank page to list the locations were the banks are…(even an “etc.” category for tid bits that someone thinks is important) This way everything pertaining to “banks” is on that one and only page. I know with me, there is nothing I hate more than doing a search for something on a site and finding the page only to be re-directed over and over for the answer I was looking for. That is what I feel will happen here with others… they will wonder why they are being re-directed when in fact all the info could be tidy tucked in on one page… A one stop spot for all your banking information. :) --Miranda Dawn 05:00, 11 February 2011 (CET)

Just so you know: I read it... then I was writing some lines.. about 30mins worth.. and I decided not to post it.. Maybe tomorrow is a better day, with a clear head. but maybe not, maybe never. And never ask me. Some things better might never be said. --Cliff Burton Marco 07:39, 11 February 2011 (CET)

I spent time entering in info, useless to some or not, that was to assist on a project. I had the understanding that Marco preferred not to have lists. If he prefers he can zap my entries altogether and I will not take it personal. I will leave the information, its content value or need for it up to him to decide. I certainly am not the coding guru. Until then, hopefully all will remain civil. No harm intended.----Samantha DawnI don't care
That means Clif can't reply while being "neutral". Since I am not and don't care for any of you {Miranda, Liski and Edan) I will say a few things, but out of respect for Clif I will keep it short and nice. In clif's own words... "Lists are ugly" In order to have this Category:Banks and this Category:Pubs, this Category:Old Pubs Names and this Category:Renamed Pubs each location had to have a page and Clif likes these Categorys better then "Sloppy" lists. Since you know everything and are complaining about a task Clif asked to be done, why don't you tell me who renames these pubs: The Angel's Wing, The Freudian Slip, Club Xendom, Xendom Tavern, The Dog House, The Lazy Sunflower, and the few others I haven't added new pub names of (85 of 91 couldn't find "The Ferryman's arms") after taking my and Samantha's time to verify each bank and specially pubs names and location for each (About 400 entrys) before posting them for Clif who asked for the data to be done this way. (This old list was very wrong on several locations) I know it's just because it's me who did it you don't like it, but I really hope you feel stupid now because it was clif who approved the data input and what was done before it was done. So your really not "bitching" about me your bitching to "MOM" about his own WiKi and what he wanted in it. Just so you know I started with just lists and clif wanted more. Sorry Marco I know you wanted me to stay out of it, but since you can't stay neutral and no one else is and are mad I will set the babies stright. --Lord Galamushidon't talk to me 13:11, 11 February 2011 (CET)
I think you're missing the point of being "civil". We're not "bitching" except to point out another POV. If Marco likes it that way then it's his final decision, we're simply stating another POV. You don't need to go off on everyone because we don't agree. At the end of the day Marco wants it to be that way because he thinks lists are ugly then that's his final decision. Stop taking everything as an attack as it wasn't meant to be. Everyone likes things differently. What is the point of having a discussion area if you can't discuss things? Don't EVER assume you know me or my reasons please as I found you ignorant and insulting. If you want to talk to me you can, I listen and I respond and I can be very civil so please please do not tell me what I am doing or why. Do not insult me as this is an OOC forum not IC. I have done nothing to you so please return the respect.
Marco, please don't feel this is a personal attack it was not meant to be. Just an observation. As I said, at the end of the day it is your decision so don't feel like anything you say is pointless or goes unheard. It has nothing to do with WHO did it, and more to do with the end result. If you are happy and it's what you want then who am I to judge. --LISA Talk|Character 18:12, 11 February 2011 (CET)
I couldn't have said that better myself, seriously, I tried...it didn't come out right. Thank you, Lisa. <3 --Bry talkvamp 21:01, 11 February 2011 (CET)
Ok… I’m going to put in my 99 cents worth here... first off… Bry, Lisa and myself were NOT rude in my opinion… we were expressing our “opinions”… I know I was under the impression that is what these pages were for… we were certainly not attacking Sam… I mean even if the posts were rude (which they were not) … Sam wasn’t even the one who made the pages… now was he? Funny how he takes something he didn’t even do as an attack…. Next… If Marco did in fact ask Sam and Kim to make those 200+ pages… then after Bry’s comment Marco should of had had the balls to tell him he asked them to do it…. instead he didn’t but beat around the bush and then went off on some… do you have pixs that you arnt using etc. etc. etc.? Which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic the discussion was about… btw, off topic, I know I have 2 pictures there I uploaded and no longer using…but guess what?… I don’t know how to erase them or delete them, I also seen Sam has quite a few there too but I don’t see Sam being asked if he has pictures there like what was done with Bry. Seems to me that Marco took offense with Bry not liking his 200+ bank page idea clearly by his "picture comment" and this quote tells me Marco didnt like others not liking the 200+ bank pages idea “Just so you know: I read it... then I was writing some lines.. about 30mins worth.. and I decided not to post it.. Maybe tomorrow is a better day, with a clear head. but maybe not, maybe never. And never ask me. Some things better might never be said “ Marco certainly seemed he was offended people thought his idea wasn’t the greatest….oh well… that’s life. Marco, if this was your idea or “project” I still think it's not productive …sorry, I really do. Now ban me or whatever if you want... atm I really dont care...I personally don’t care who’s idea all those pages were… it’s a bad idea in my mind. Also off topic… I am appalled how some can treat other players with such disrespect and get away with it in an ooc setting on here… though I have no idea why I would think this venue would be any different than any other RBC settings. I had hope. I also cant believe that its acceptable for Sam to have on his signature... “don’t talk to me” and Kim having her user page, ” Amazingly enough, I don't give a shit” Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s all ooc right? And that’s allowed here? Blatant negativity ooc… nice… real nice… if Sam and Kim don’t want to talk to people ooc, fine (after all I’m sure there are many that really don’t want to talk to them either)… but there is a diplomatic way to say it out of respect for your fellow players....also, since this is an OOC venue...how can someone with that additute be productive here? It boggles my mind. Marco… I said this to you the other night and I’ll say it again…. Monster… have fun--Miranda Dawn 05:09, 12 February 2011 (CET)
I will say again I am sorry my pages that I added in helping with a project have caused such an issue. I have a few other things that I need to stress myself out over than what is said and done here. It's Marco's masterpiece and a palette I was honored to help out on. I will cease doing that because the man doesn't need this kind of chaos I am sure. I cant imagine the time it took Marco to get the site up, to maintain it or for that matter run it on a daily basis. I respect what someone does so generously with their time that I certainly could not begin to do. I offered to help when asked. Anyone who knows me knows I cannot do any real coding. Give me a few seconds and I can make such a mess of a page it would never look the same. I was given a template and used it. It is not my area of expertise. I will bow out of future assistance and go back to adding on shop or guild finding. I won't be a part of the fighting. Marco , I apologize again, for the way this has turned out. I have edited my pages on the talk portion and whatever else has offended people so I hope they are left as they are. This is supposed to be a place of growth and information gathering built by a community of a common interest shared. Instead this, because of making a bunch of pages that I thought was of assistance, has become a verbal battle zone. I don't want to add that kind of environment when it is ran and owned by someone else. ----Samantha DawnI don't care
Please if you think I was insulting then so be it. I don't like you theres nothing more to that statement then truth. Thats not an insult, thats a fact. My POV. Same as you thinking I know why it was brought up, agian my POV not an insult. You want to be insulted thats going to be your POV. I at least don't pertend to be something I am not Bry. If you want insults it's going to look like this referring dirrectly to the drunk above sharon. Let me guess, Friday night Sharons drunk and mean, same as always. This whole topic "Spamming pages" thats an insult and an attack and I will treat it for what it is and not some flimsy POV crap Liski tried to make. Your a B!%ch Sharon, a drunk nucking fut b!%ch whos just venting steam since you can't take any real action about it. If your offended by those pages, don't look at them. Your the one who used to do the same thing. With EX friends like you it's no wonder we don't dont want to have anything to do with people in the city after how you treated us for years. I think your a Nucking Fut drunk fotze, Samantha was just trying to help and I took it as an insult because you three pricks have convenced her not to help this project so you will all find me soon for that. Kiss my arse Sharon, if anyones the monster its you. I am just going to keep improving this Wiki because I know now for sure just how much it pisses you off but as for here the topic is dead, theirs nothing left but a bitch feast. Have fun and yeah Don't talk to me. --Lord Galamushidon't talk to me 13:26, 12 February 2011 (CET)


Guys, this really isn't productive to point fingers and complain, can we just drop it and handle the situation at hand? This is about the project of having all the pages for each bank and each location of each bank which was the initial discussion. If Marco wants it to be that way then let it be the end of it. Sam's player, please don't get disheartened it just seemed redundant and it's not a reflection on you or the hard work that you put into doing it. I understand the time and energy involved it just seemed like an odd use of it to me. So in finality, Marco, is this what you want to be done with the pages? I noticed that the bank pages are all generally the same except with the location changing. Could we just have one page they all redirect to with the same information or is that missing the point? I'm just trying to understand. Thanks. --LISA Talk|Character 18:41, 12 February 2011 (CET)

The project was far from complet when question started getting asked and it stopped. Here is an example page and the only one that got attension yet. Malaise and 50th. Given time and attension each should be discussed and even could be decorated for Role Play sake. I think you all missed the point. It was done to orginize them better then a mannual list and reclassifacation will most likely continue once these complants stop. It's kind of hard to show an end result if complants start before things have been given a chance to be completed. --Lord Galamushidon't talk to me 19:44, 12 February 2011 (CET)
Ok I see what you're saying. Discussing it helps us all understand better I think, and getting a feel for what you mean gives me a better scope of it in entirety. I personally prefer lists (as I've never really RP'd the banks) but I can see where you're coming from. It might cause some friction down the road as people try to "own" a bank but I can completely understand the purpose. It's too bad that the banks themselves don't have names and we have to rely on the street names which was my initial shock at seeing pages dedicated to streets.
I think the problem was that there was just the additions with no real answers for the final direction which made it all seem pointless, you know? If you'd just said this in the first place I think we could have avoided all that drama :) If you need any help, please let me know. Looks like it could be fun. --LISA Talk|Character 21:20, 12 February 2011 (CET)
I don't think anyone would want a bank but I could describe a few. Since Samantha and I keep a lot of thralls in different areas we understand who lives in the area what the bank traffic is like ECT. We have RPed in banks mostly robbing them killing everyone inside and burning it to the ground. The fun stuff. Samantha was talking about decorating a bank with flowers or just making something up stupid to make it fun to look at all thoughs banks. Yes the pages were all entered the same because it applies to all banks and then later more detail for each bank can be added. As far as the pubs go... They attract more croweds and so that could be apart of it. Hell Clif lives in The Moon with †Bad Boy & †Good Girl and someone else now. Miranda has several very nicely done pubs she owns and have been done well and it would be nice to set the stage for every Pub to be done in that way. If it is unowned then I would say it's first come first serve on describing it and inhancing the page but once someone pays for it... it's for them to decorate. --Lord Galamushidon't talk to me 01:20, 13 February 2011 (CET)

Location Project

Before you go complaining about spamming this is a project to redirect all city locations to their respective page and to orginize them in to the new [[Category:Building_Locations]]. If you would like to help it would be greatly wanted since their are over 600 buildings in the city. When it's done every location address in the city should redirect to whatever is located there and each address of a building of any type should be listed in the new category. --Lord Galamushidon't talk to me 00:46, 20 February 2011 (CET)

Site Usage Agreement

So you don't waste your time I am starting with the most important point: the conclusion, because if you don't agree, you can stop reading further.

0. Nobody is forcing or asking you to use the wiki. If you do not like users that edit it and the things that are going on and how it is run ... you know what I am saying.

1. THINK first before you contact me.

2. I am so full of adults that have emotional problems. See #0.

3. I am not interested in your personal problems you have with other users. Especially those IC See #0. I am not interested what you think what "real" intensions an other user has or if an (a?) user in your opinion will become a monster. It is my decision whom I give my trust. e.g. If it was me, Archibaldo the horrible would still be admin, even if he sometimes misused that power. But he always accepted my wishes, even if it was some kind of punishment for him. You do not know what RL problems others have. I bet a large amount of members of our community has self-esteem issues, count me in. And that is the reason for many of them to play this game. It's an escape in an alternative reality. Real because there is communication with other real persons. And those who complain, fear to lose control about that freedom they have there. Seems many of you aren't able to forgive mistakes or to trust others that they act in good faith.

4. I do not care about how much resources you put in here. I put much more into it. And that's more than editing pages, you schmucks. I did and still do graphic design, server maintenance, wiki software maintenance, which includes software updates and hardening against hackers and spammers, so that you have a nice life on/in/with the wiki. When I was handed over the Domain ravenblackcity.com (which btw. I didn't ask for) and with it the former forum I had to learn that it wasn't updated in years. It wasn't much of a surprise that a lot of spammer accounts were registered and the reason I chose to shut it down. This site constantly gets attacked by spammers and script kiddies (exploitation attempts) which you don't even notice. It seems you think it goes without saying that I put my time into those things which you also not even notice.

Badbehaviour.PNG

4a. I also provide the Server, which means I pay for the two sites since November 5. 2005 that's more than half a decade, that's more than 5 years (I better explain, as you people behave so stupidly that I am not entirely sure that you get it). And if you mean I am using your content to get rich by using Google ads, I better show you the following the screenshot.

9. (Moved that here, didn't want to change and mess up the references. See, I am human and make mistakes, too).

I don't care if you donated money or time, and/or shared time with talking with me friendly. Here's the statistics of my google adsense account for the two sites you use and I included ads, which is modestly I think.

Google-revenue.png

5. If you're not writing stuff, others will, eventually, even if it is just what is known about your character vy others.

6. If you do not like what's written about your character (clan, group, family line etc.), then become a wiki user (register) or stay if you're already and claim ownership. Otherwise the author who started it, is the owner (or godfather).

7. If someone else started your userpage, I will not erase it, even if you give an other user the permission. See #6.

8. If you become a user to claim the ownership, my advice is, don't blank the page. Because wiki pages have a history (versioning) the former pages will always be very easily accessible and therefore readable. And no, See 7#

8. I assume you do not have a copyright for your character, and even if you registered a trademark, it still is legal to write about it. Be hinted, that this server is hosted in Germany. That's a small country in Europe, on the other side of the Atlantic See, you could say, in "far far away"-land. See #7.

9. Moved behind #4

10. The ability of image upload is usually disabled on wikis, even if you do not believe it and are used to it by wikipedia or your beloved forums, which most of them come for free with loads of advertising, slow bandwidth and restrictions. Go ask for support and you will see that you will not be asked how the software and environment is dynamically adapted for your needs. You should know that I am able to tell who and where from a picture is loaded (eg. inclusion on external pages). Not pointing fingers. If this becomes rampant, I will limit the inclusion only to this server. Very easy todo, but I'd rather would not have to.

11. If you keep complaining about users doing a lot and you think they do for the wrong reasons, See #1. If I get asked something, though I understand that the real question is something else or the question is based on animosity towards an particular user, See #0. Grow up!

12. If you think the knowledge is organized in a bad or unfavorable way, See #1. It should be clear that every person has it's own preferences how information is best processed. And therefore I can't guarantee to do that in the best way for everyone. Remember school? (assuming you attended, though sometimes you make me doubt that too). Not every pupil was able to get the best grades, even if they tried harder. I am organizing the information as the wiki provides the possibilities and how the software is made for it.

13. I am respecting you, your wishes and opinions, all I am asking you is to respect mine too. I am even respecting you if you do not agree with me or can't work with a particular person. If the last statement applies to you, than See #0.

14. Don't complain about users creating a lot of Pages, especially in their own userspace (eg. User:Username/another page). Text doesn't need really much space on a hard drive, images sometimes do very much so, especially when they aren't processed, which means the picture is much larger in size than it is used on the article it is included, or it has more colors than needed (16 million colors instead of 256), the latter is called bit-depth.

15. And last but not least, don't use me as a role model. I am human, I make mistakes, I might change my mind on things, I will not remember everything I have said (written). Don't use my words against users you do not like (even more against those you like or love). I am sick of "cliff or marco said". Rules can be interpreted. Apply common sense extensively. Sometimes I may make drastic and fast or surprising changes without asking even RB. I am the one paying the bills, remember?

I am sorry if I sound arrogant, rude, offending, egoistic, in a holier-than-thou way.. but that's the result of taking it the last 2 years and I am having enough RL trouble. I understand that you may have challenges of your own, but that's your problem and I have mine. And mine are those who count for me and make my life miserable. So it is you or me having a problem with the wiki related social problems. Guess what I choose! Those who had personal chats or email correspondence with me, know that I prefer to be a patient and understanding sort of person. Maybe sometimes a bit too kind. And those who read my earlier rants know also that I am repeating myself over and over.. Trying not to let that happen too much in the future. It is eating me up. Those who are a bit longer on the wiki know also that I prefer not to make use of my administrative powers I have. Sometimes you ask me, sometimes even press me to use them. Seems the human life-form calls for having leadership, because that way they can give up their own responsibility and therefore think they can blame it on the leaders. But guess what, if you don't stand up for your believes and do nothing, you are responsible for that too. I mean, we Germans know from our history, what happens when you just let others lead an deceit you. And you know that too. I mean, come on, you fellows and fel(l)ines didn't elect your former president George Dabbleyou "search Google for dumb motherf..." Bush, right? Not pointing fingers, as undoubtedly WWII was an undescrible much bigger crime against humanity.
Before you answer! See #1. Best would be to don't even try. Maybe a small note that you read it, So I don't have to wonder if even a single person gives a shit about my rants.

Fangs, for giving my your time if you have read it entirely. This doesn't count for cheaters which only read the last chapters of novells :P

(Damn, I can't believe that I just wasted 1 and a half hour to write this down)

--Cliff Burton Marco 17:52, 15 February 2011 (CET)

My thoughts after the storm

Let's all try not to point fingers or use names. I am trying to do that, too and so I am advising others as well. And I hear you, what you are saying and complaining about. But do I need to comment or agree to that? What I learned is, as the one who (still) does not have IC history with those who are controversial, because I have just the experience with them by talking with the persons behind their character, what they like to be IG. If someone plays me OOC, I know what to do. Ironically, it is mostly those persons who were barfing the loudest and warning me the most, which seemed to have used me so far. I am not disappointed about that, as I am trying to understand even the troubled. IMHO there is always a human reason for that behavior. But also I think this behavior isn't limited to the game alone. I bet, if you'd be a close friend (meaning in person) you would have noticed that too. Still, IMO. And still I am not pointing fingers, as this applies to all of us. In good and bad ways.

With two examples I use names: With A(A) and TJ, I had that experience too. Never (and still not) had a reason to complain about them much. I am only sorry that those two left the way they did. But A even apologized to me for his leave. And they were disappointed that they felt somehow to be driven out of the town (with fire and broomsticks, like Frankenstein) and betrayed by me (!). But while they were working at the wiki and when the first complains started, they thanked me for that I had taken and seen them just as what they are. And these things repeat. Those who play in a certain (anti-social, hard-edge, brutal, betrayal etc.) way IC (which the reasons for that kind of playing style are RPing or OOC personal/psychological), are often to be seen as to be like that OOC. Which, of course, could be. But that doesn't mean it is always or often so.

So, what does it say about my gut feeling, my intuition and trust, that I am not scared to have my character attacked by those troubled persons who left the wiki? And I wouldn't avenge it. But be told, that... I might not play this game for any longer. And with that I am pretty sure the sites would be gone. At least the wiki, as it needs someone who is neutral as, I believe only I can provide for what I have learned and seen. And the reason for my leave would not be to punish those, or because I would be so disappointed. I am the type of person that just wouldn't be interested in this any more, there wouldn't be any reason left for me to play and run this any further.. Also it would be the sign of a weak person who would have done this, sending me the signal that it isn't worth to put my afford OOC into it anymore. Even if it would punish those who did nothing and also put much afford in the wiki. I am not that of a forgiving saint that I need to waste my resources. You can interpret this that way, that you fellas and felines have only one chance with me and that.

It also says something that you guys seem to be afraid of those persons which are so heavily disputed, even more if they put a lot of energy into the wiki. Some said they use it to "turn" the wiki into "their" place. But thinking such is wrong. At the end, I call the shots. Though, as you know, with very loose strings and giving you as much liberty as possible. And you also you guys forget, ... first, that those persons really do put resources into it... so they have an emotional binding to it and therefore would loose all that what give them something in return for that. And second.. you guys also have the liberty to do as much as you like. I hear you saying.. "How can you say that, when [enter name here] doesn't let me change it?" ... But here is where I come to play. And at the end there never was anyone who disrespected my wishes. Well, I really hope it wasn't out of fear (of what anyways?). Just try to stop name calling. No matter on which side you are. Fangs. --Cliff Burton Marco 12:23, 20 February 2011 (CET)

Small addition: I like to say that I am not proud of my rant before and the offense I might have done with it. I am not thinking that I am a better person, weather personal nor by nationality. I really love the English language, I watch more stuff in English than in German, which means almost all I am watching. So, maybe you can accept my apologies. Also I run the sites for you, not for me. Your thankfulness is my reward. And I know it wouldn't be possible without you. But.. I won't censor the rant, nor remove it but I might make a more reasonable Site Usage Agreement from it. Still Fangfull, --Cliff Burton Marco 12:59, 20 February 2011 (CET)

Hey, Cliff. I understand your frustration (I've dealt with similar issues when moderating places for this game), but I want to say you're doing a good job. Firstly-NOBODY chased AA and Tejas out of the wiki. They chose to leave when AA lost his sysop "power", and did so in a rather dramatic way. They could've very easily stayed. That said... the last few months I like to think a lot of drama has died out. There hasn't been any bannings and (to my knowledge) nor has there been any edit-wars. Which I think is a huge step-up from the craziness of last year. I don't know what's gone on recently to make you post that rant, but whatever it is Im sure is as a result of good intentioned people saying things wrongly. So there's new pages being created, so what? It doesn't effect my wallet, it effects yours. The wiki's very easy to navigate and is used by almost every in the game (Whether they admit it or not). Nobody has anything to gain, or lose, by making new pages and that's sheer fact. You've created the 'Owner-only-edit' banner to keep others from messing with personal pages when the owner actually cares, you've solved a lot of the (in my opinion childish) issues. Soo.. I guess what I'm saying here is thanks, and I really hope you don't close down the wiki. -- Ace Talk|Character 15:50, 9 March 2011 (CET)
Fangs for, not only, the moral support. As long as I can maintain it, and as long it is needed (who knows how long the "city" lasts) I have no intentions in closing it.. I explained the only reason (but serious health or monetary issues) what make me do it. As long as you like it, .. it will keep being there for you. The good stuff that happend to me while running the sites are keeping it more than in balance. About A and T, a lot of you think that way, and it would be naive to think you all are wrong.. and maybe I am really the one who is wrong, but I (like to) think that the world isn't dividable in black or white.. but also I didn't beg them to stay.. which I won't do for anyone I guess, and I didn't for anyone else. Fangs for the back up, pal. --Cliff Burton Marco 17:00, 9 March 2011 (CET)
Cheers to you, Ace! I couldn't have said it better. *Sings* "Like a good neighbor, Cliffburon is there!" *big smiles to Cliff*--Cricket -talk -character 22:57, 10 March 2011 (CET)
I am flattered, fangs.. And after I used my power Google(3,5) and found the State Farm ads I finally get it.. usually not watching U.S. ads.. only TV series. Cheers to you two/too.--Cliff Burton Marco 23:04, 10 March 2011 (CET)

charbox

Is there any way that we can modify the {{charbox-1}} to include partner? --JakeTalk 21:49, 27 January 2012 (EST)

Hi Jake, are you askin how it's done, or if you are allowed to? The answer to the latter is of course you can. Just don't break it :D --Cliff Burton Marco 03:55, 28 January 2012 (CET)
I found it! And did it! It's not broken! :D --JakeTalk 22:45, 27 January 2012
Impressive! I am astound that people still use and contribute to the wiki. Even more so, that there is contribution to functionality and not just plain information. Well, I am also astound that people still play Deadwood City. --Cliff Burton Marco 18:49, 28 January 2012 (CET)
I also made two new templates. Vampires with wings, and vampires that can fly without wings. --JakeTalk 21:39 28 January 2012 (EST)

Character sub-categorization

Hello Cliff! The other day I saw the Character page was in need of some more text, and you know me — I can't just edit a little. Wrote some about on an NPC discussion page first, but noone did seem to mind. Basically what I did was to replace the category "NPC" (that held the ††-chars) with "Non-Player Characters" and "Player Supporting Characters". The former are humans, vampire Hunters, necromancers, the barman and that shadowy figure, and the latter are the cool ††-extras that players make. Are you ok with the results? --deCarnacT·C 00:08, 27 April 2012 (CEST)

I am indeed! I am sorry, I wasn't productive in the wiki, lately. Drastic changes in my RL. Be sure, though, that I am aware of a lot of changes, as I watch a lot of pages. Me not responding, usually means, that I am okay with it. Though I prefer to comment positively to keep up the spirits. --Cliff Burton Marco 23:23, 3 May 2012 (CEST)

Your edits not(rollback: now) showing

Hi Marco! I noticed that your edits generally don't show up under Recent changes. I believe it is because they are flagged as "bot edits". Not sure how to set or unset this though. --deCarnacT·C 18:44, 7 January 2013 (CET)

Long live, Johan. Bringer of features, fixer of bugs. That what the missing clue. I just checked the groups my user name was member of. Bot was one of them. It seems that in July 2012 I messed around with user rights and added myself to the bots group. I couldn't remember that when I first noticed that my actions weren't logged anymore (Other users must have thought that I abandoned the wiki). Where did you find that information that my edits where flagged as such? --Cliff Burton Marco 06:14, 8 January 2013 (CET)
When opening "Recent Changes" to look at what had happened the latest days, I got curious about the options and tried them out. When selecting "Show bots" your posts suddenly appeared, all marked with a "b". It's good to see you back in the edits log again! --deCarnacT·C 09:18, 8 January 2013 (CET)
I understand. To see myself in Recent Changes is rewarding myself and motivating. It really was bugging me. --Cliff Burton Marco 10:12, 8 January 2013 (CET)

Hello

Hello Mr. Burton! I just thought I'd say hi and thank you for the Wiki and A View in the Dark. Cheers. --Pythias 17:59, 31 May 2015 (CEST)

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